the latest PKD and Religion Flamewar

From the Facebook of the excellent scholar David Gill, author of the best PKD blog.

David Hyde We all know what Philip K. Dick thought of Hubbard as a sf writer and his stupid religion!

Cal Gödot All religion is stupid. Scientology is just the new kid on the block.
about an hour ago

Ted Hand
You are stupid to say things like that. Scientology does not equal religion. It's a typical new atheist false metonymy to claim that cult pathology somehow explains all religious behavior. Real science is actually finding that religion has ...adaptive value, real philosophy has always explained that religion is no more or less irrational than anti-religion. But you doubt me? Show me an atheist who isn't emotional and irrational about his religious preference? Atheism, especially this militant new atheism, looks to objective observers just like any other enthusiastic religion. You ask me, new atheism is just as bad as Scientology. At least Scientologists aren't advocating nuking the Arabs like Harris.

Ted Hand
Actually I should say that I have a great deal of respect for serious atheist. You know, the ones who aren't so insecure and defensive about their faith choice that they feel the need to troll on the internet about it? I would love to see s...erious atheists join the debate. The plain truth is that they're not stupid enough to make arguments about theology, and just get down to the business of doing science. Some of the best scientists working on the evolutionary origins of religion are atheists, but they're not saying stupid things about religion like Hitchkins and co. Hopefully, Cal, one day when you actually understand (since you can't stay anti-scientific forever) the difference between true religion, which helps people although it doesn't have anything like the kind of truth claim bridge builders need, and false religion, which has all the harmful traits that Dawkins etc. mistake for the whole, I hope your stupidity will be reduced. I say this out of kindness, although I confess that there's a natural defensiveness since although I'm a stone cold atheist most ways that matter (thank God!) I do find religion highly intelligent and worthy of study.

Cal Gödot I guess I'm just a better atheist than you are, Ted.

Ted Hand It's a poor atheist who resorts to such weak flaming. I think a good atheist doesn't avoid thinking seriously about the subject matter. But it doesn't provide any comfort or wisdom, as you are making clearly. I am deeply sorry for your pain. I'm not mad at God for not existing, myself, and I'm not angry with religious people for seeking that form of comfort. Please consider that you are doing more harm than good with your nasty attitude and clumsy comments.

Frank Bertrand Good for you Ted...I second and third what you said, and then some!!!

Ted Hand I should say comfort and intellectual stimulation, because religion certainly requires a good deal more serious thought than atheism, which apparently takes people about 30 seconds to arrive at and arrests all future thought. Robert Anton Wilson called that "the death of intelligence." but maybe I have a stupid theory of what's logical and healthy. who knows? I can only refer to science and scholarly research.

Ted Hand

thanks Frank! I'm grateful for Dave as usual flushing out the troll with a quiet grace. Flashbacks of playing NES duck hunt as a boy, but while it's fun to kid around about target shooting at shallow ideological illusions, there's a lot of ...pain there and I really needed to get that off my chest. I'm grateful to Dave for what I've learned from him over the years about taking PKD seriously, and that includes not reducing him to some specific view, or calling him stupid because he dedicated so many thousands of hours to questions of religion. But if you think this stuff is stupid, I won't be offended if you don't want to read my PKD and religion blog.

Frank Bertrand I'd be glad to read your PKD and religion blog...where's it at?? As for that subject, I would argue that Phil did indeed have an interest in religion, but even more so in Philosophy and Psychology -- all being but "intellectual tools" to help him fabricate answers to his two salient themes of What is Reality?, and What is "human-ness"?

Ted Hand
I think it's a mistake to overlook Phil's serious religious faith. It wasn't just a philosophical or psychological interest, it inspired much of his philosophizing, and it was based on experience... as well as belief.

Frank Bertrand As for how "serious" I would carefully consider what Dr. Ann Mini has written at her blogspot...I'm not at all convinced about his espoused beliefs...makes for great novel matter, though.

Cal Gödot Yeah, I'm weak - or tired of defending my opinion against flamers who criticize me for flaming. I think there's a word for people like that.

Frank Bertrand Wow, how eloquent and loquacious we are Mr. Godot...reminds me of years ago on the jazzflavor PKD list....

Cal Gödot You old farts make me laugh. You really do.

Frank Bertrand I'd much rather be flatuating than random flaming with no specific purpose...

Ted Hand Cal, You know what I think is funny about old farts? They have tons of valuable experience and wisdom, but assholes like you don't appreciate it (or even listen) when they try and tell us they see a pattern. Fart jokes are funny as hell. Keep 'em coming. You do great Dick Jokes too.

Ted Hand Cal, I'm not merely criticizing you for flaming. It's also the poor quality of your thinking that is worth scrutiny. If you can't handle a direct response, don't insult me. The way I see it, there is a right and a wrong answer to this problem, and you have the wrong answer. This isn't a case of you not feeling like responding to my bad attitude, you can't actually answer my logic. If you can, and can do it without resorting to your usual nasty tactics, I will be happy to concede defeat. I think about this stuff because I want to understand it better. It seems like you are unjustly rejecting the idea of even taking it seriously. But if I'm wrong, why are you just throwing insults? Why not defend your case? No atheist has ever done so convincingly, so you could make a lot of money. I see it like the Randi Psychic Prize. Surely it would be worth a million dollars to you to simply say whatever it is you're thinking, that nobody has ever thought before...

David Gill Frank, I'd take Dr Ann Mini with a pillar of salt... Perhaps all secondary PKD texts should include a small packet of salt....

Ted Hand PKD's own words need to be taken with a grain of salt. But I don't think we can avoid the conclusion that he's not just kidding around about his serious interest in religion, which includes a sincere faith, however much he may have questioned it.

David Gill Frank, I absolutely agree with you that PKD sold his mystical experiences and gained quite a rep doing it, brilliant marketing. But I saw a complete copy of the Exegesis; it took up most of the room; and it was quite obviously a work of faith. or rather, the work of a rational mind to try to understand experiences it knew to be true...

Frank Bertrand I realize that I should have been more careful with the antecedents of my pronouns...sorry, Ted. Try: "I get that, Ted, but Phil Dick mentions and writes about C.G. Jung MUCH more than S. Freud."

Ted Hand Oh of course. Jung's a great uncharted territory as a future applicable model for PKD. I'm working on Jung+PKD, specifically the influence of gnosticism and alchemy on Jung and PKD via Jung (and Frances Yates, apparently, judging from his understanding of Bruno) and I recommend anybody interested read Umland's article on Upon the Dull Earth. Perhaps my favorite single scholarly article.